He hates school

[ange65]

OK Here goes

WISC-IV (tested April 07) Composite PR Confidence Classification
Score Interval (90%)

Verbal Comprehension Index (VBI) 83 13 78-91 low average
Perceptual Reasoning Index (PRI) 96 39 90-103 average
Working Memory Index (WMI) 88 21 82-96 low average
Processing Speed Index (PSI) 109 73 100-116 average
Full Scale IQ (FSIQ) 90 25 85-96 average

Weschler subtests (April 07)

Scale Subtest Scaled score Classification

Verbal Comprehension Similarities 8 Average
Vocabulary 6 Low/Weakness
Comprehension 7 Low/weakness
Perceptual Reasoning Block design 8 Average
Picture concepts 10 Average
Matrix reasoning 10 Average
Working memory Digit Span 9 Average
Letter-Number sequencing 7 Low/weakness
Processing speed Coding 15 Low/weakness
Symbol Search 8 Average


CMS Scores summary (April 07)

Scale Index PR Descriptive
Score Category

Visual Immediate 82 12 Low Average
Visual Delayed 103 58 Average
Verbal Immediate 91 27 Average
Verbal delayed 91 27 Average
General memory 88 21 Low Average
Attention/concentration 103 58 Average
Learning 85 16 Low average
Delayed recognition 112 79 High average


WPPSI-III (tested July 06)

Scale/Areas Composite Percentile Confidence
Score Rank Interval

Verbal 78 7 72-87
Performance Reasoning 100 50 92-108
Processing Speed 98 45 90-107
Full Scale 89 23 84-95



Wow, that tested my typing skills. These are the only test results that I have. I hope they makes sense to you.

Cheers, Andrea

[bugsmom]

Bumping this up for Lillian to see.

[lillian]

PDD-NOS, huh? Hmm. These scores are not the scores you usually see with a child who has PDD-NOS. Now, not all children fit into a neat little box--in fact, few do--so it's possible your child does have PDD-NOS, but since you are not comfortable with that dx, I question it. No one knows a child better than his/her parent does, when that parent is a caring, compassionate, and observant parent, and the child is not going through puberty, when alien forces fly down from the Planet From H@ll and take over the child's body (that would be my son's situation, at present, as I stand back and ask myself, "Who is this child?"). So, I'll tell you what I see in the testing, and you can tell me what you think. I don't know what you know about IQ testing, so I hope I'm not talking down to you by explaining some of it. Here goes...

The test that your son took, the WISC-IV, has four indexes--verbal, perceptual, working memory, and processing speed. The verbal, perceptual, and working memory all require verbal responses; therefore, the test is what is called a "verbal IQ test." The perceptual reasoning section is often called a nonverbal section of the test because block design and matrix reasoning do not require verbal responses; however, picture concepts does require a verbal response, and all sections of the test are completed after a verbal explanation, as to what needs to be done. The verbal explanations are much less a part of the perceptual reasoning section, than they are the verbal and working memory sections, but they still are part of the test. So, even though, the WISC-IV is said to have both a verbal and nonverbal section, that is not true. It is a verbal IQ test, with the perceptual reasoning section using much fewer verbal cues and responses, than the verbal section. I mention all this because it is important to note when looking at your child's scores.

Your child scored quite a bit higher on the perceptual reasoning index, than he did on the verbal index. When this occurs, it often is thought to be occurring because the child has a language-based learning disability. When language is taken out of the test or greatly reduced in the test, the child performs much better. It is often advised, therefore, when you see this in a child's IQ test to make sure the child is given a true nonverbal IQ test, such as the UNIT (Universal Nonverbal Intelligence Test), and to test the child in a wide variety of language achievement testing. You want to know how well the child understands oral language, responds orally, reads, spells, and writes. Such tests as The Woodcock Reading Mastery to test basic reading skills, The Test of Written Language or the WIAT's Written Expression section to test writing skills, The Grey Oral Reading Test or The Test of Word Reading Efficiency to test reading fluency, and a variety of speech and oral language tests given by a speech/language pathologist to test receptive and expressive language, ALL need to be given to rule in or out a language-based learning disability.

Now, when a child has PDD-NOS, the child will often score higher on the verbal index and much lower on the perceptual reasoning index. The reason for this is that children on the spectrum, who do not have full-blown autism, often have very good verbal skills but an extremely difficult time with visual perception, fine and gross motor skills, and reading nonverbal cues, all of which are necessary to complete the perceptual reasoning index subtests. To automatically say a child with stronger perceptual reasoning skills than verbal skills can't have PDD-NOS or that much stronger verbal skills always indicate children on the higher end of the spectrum is absolutely not true, but it is often the case. So, since you question the PDD-NOS dx, I think I would have my son re-evaluated, by someone who really understands language-based learning disabilities.

Your child's lowest score was vocabulary, and this often indicates a child who is not a reader and/or who has difficulties with oral comprehension because children understand vocabulary in those two ways--they read vocabulary and learn it, or they hear vocabulary and learn it. Some children with serious reading disabilities will score very high on the vocabulary section of the test because the children are memorizing vocabulary orally. My son is an example of that. He has a reading disability, so he is unable to read the same amount as the average child his age, but he scores in the 88th percentile on oral vocabulary. I'm not sure with your son. I don't know if he is a reader or not. If he is, and his vocabulary score is what it is, I wonder how well he is comprehending orally. Looking at his verbal memory scores, I question that even further.

Comprehension on the WISC deals with long-term memory, being tested orally, and his score on that is low, also. Both his verbal delayed and verbal immediate memory scores on the memory testing are "average," but barely so (25th percentile is the beginning of average). I see him struggling with oral language. I see him having difficulties taking it in and processing it quickly, which can make understanding what is happening in a classroom, particularly an elementary classroom where so much of it is oral, very, very difficult for him.

At this point, I am leaning toward Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) being a possibility with him. I am going to post this, then come back and post a link or two for CAPD. Read the information and tell me what you think.

[lillian]

This lead is good for an overall explanation of CAPD, but the intervention strategies are really silly. Give the child chores? Hmm. Not sure I get that one. Anyhoo, here is the lead:

kidshealth.org/parent/medical/ears/central_auditory.html

The intervention strategies listed in this lead are much better and what are traditionally used:

www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/voice/auditory.asp

[ange65]

Lillian,
Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this.
When you mentioned the CAPD my ears pricked up, as my older child, Sam(10 years old) has been tested borderline for this and needs to be retested in a years time, so I thought that I should look at this in more detail for Jack. Jack and Sam are very different in most aspects . Jack has the behavioural issues and gets so frustrated so easily, whilst Sam is so placid but on
another planet sometimes, so I never really thought that Jack could possibly have the same thing.
Does Jack have the symptoms of CAPD??

* Easily distracted or unusually bothered by loud or sudden sounds?
Yes. He cant stand a noisy environment. Especially at school or if he is doing his
homework. He loses it if he is trying to concentrate but it doesnt bother him if say, he is at
a party.
* Are noisy environments upsetting to your child?
Mainly when he his trying to concentrate on something, but anywhere else it depends on
his mood
* Does your childs behavior/performance improve in quieter environments?
Yes. We notice it with homework and also he mentions that it is sometimes too noisy at
school.
* Does he have difficulty following directions, whether simple or complicated?
We haven't noticed this being a problem but we will start to take more notice of this and
test it a bit.
* Does your child have reading, spelling, writing, or other speech language problems?
OK. This is where it gets complicated.
Coincidently, Today I was talking to Jacks teacher about his reading and she confirmed to
me that he is reading very well and is comprehending what he is reading. (He is reading
at a level of a 10-11 year old). Jack is 9 years and 4 months old.
But he will refuse to read an assignment stating that it is much too hard and will take too
long.
His spelling is very good .
His writing skills are not very good. He finds it very difficult to get his thoughts on paper.
He physically also hates writing. ( For instance, In a spelling test, he will verbally tell you
how to spell it but will refuse to write it.)
Speech language difficulties are not something that we have been concerned with really.

* Is abstract info difficult for your child to comprehend?
Doesn't seem to have any problems.
* Is your child disorganized and forgetful?
VERY VERY VERY!!!
* Are conversations hard for your child to follow?
No. He can have a conversation with you. (If he feels like it, that is.)
* Does he have behavioral problems?
YES YES YES. He gets very frustrated, very easily and finds it very hard to regroup and
calm down.
* Does he need more time to process information?
Possibly. It is hard to know as he gives up very easily on most tasks.
* Does he have poor listening skills?
Not really.
* Does he have low academic performances?
Not really. He is more and more refusing to either start or complete tasks at school so
they are finding it difficult to test his academics, but when he does comply he seems to fit
in around average.

So there you have it! I have always known he had sensory issues with his hearing . Maybe CAPD is a possibility. Maybe his behavioral difficulties mask some of his problems. Maybe there is a learning difficulty thrown in there as well.
I'm pretty sure its not PDD-NOS and I'm sure he is not on the spectrum at all but I have felt no need to correct his diagnosis yet. I am much
more interested in finding what IS the problem for now and how to help him as much as I can.
Do you still think CAPD (or anything else for that matter) is a possibility after seeing the above information?

[lillian]

What concerns me is that there is the assumption that he is capable but choosing not to do his work, simply because he does not want to, when the IQ testing is showing the possibility of problems. It is against Special Education law in the United States to use one test to decide whether or not a child qualifies for Special Education. The two tests your son has had--an IQ test and a memory test--would be inadequate to qualify him for services in the United States. Achievement testing needs to be done, in your son's case, to see where he is academically in relation to his peers. Because the IQ test is showing the possibility of a language-based learning disability, I think achievement testing, such as the tests I listed, should be performed to rule in or out the possibility of a language disability, before anyone makes the decision that he is capable and choosing not to do the work. If this were my child, I would want him evaluated by an audiologist, also, to rule in or out CAPD. He has enough signs of it that I think it could be a possibility, and you have another child you suspect has this issue. I don't know if CAPD is genetic or not. You may want to ask the audiologist, who tested your older son.

[ange65]

Thanks Lillian,
I am going to look into Jack having the achievement testing and will also make an appointment to for him to see the audiologist.
I really appreciate your input. Thanks so much.

Andrea

[lillian]

No problem, at all. Good luck! Let us know what you find out.

[jmb3]

At first when I read, he faked being sick, and then got better when home. Someone told me they took there "sick" kid home. Put them to bed. No TV, or other electronics because after all they are "sick". Then fed them only Soup. They had to stay in bed all day. This child, never called home again sick.

However, after reading the further. This may not help. I would venture to guess, it's anxiety and some type of learning disability that isn't being addressed properly. As a result, he just want to run away because he doesn't know any way to deal with what's bothering him. What exactly, sorry no clue. It might be a bunch of anxiety about math, or some kid in the class. try talking with your son, maybe he can say what's bothering him. Or if he feels worse just before math, lunch etc. Maybe use some action figures to do some role playing about school might give you some clue.

Good luck

[jill]

Me too Andrea my girl is almost 9 same deal see my post on I cannot take it anymore.