bipolar in 11 yr old

[misty]

Charlie Girl

We have a history of bipolar in my family. Many of my cousins have it. Unfortunately, their mother is dead and they didn't live with their father so I have no one to ask.

My son really is going to need to be diagnosed and treated for school this year and I want to make sure the ADHD assessments are right before I allow him to go on stims.

How does bipolar look in a child who is 9, 10 or 11 years old?

My son goes through stages of thinking he is better than the rest of the world, smarter, more capapble, etc. He gets angry easily and verbally mean but doesn't get physically mean any more.

He will have a couple of months of being studious, sweet, well mannered, and then a few months of being the brat. He can turn from being a sweetie to being rude and disruptive, hateful even, then back to being sweet withing hours, sometimes minutes.

He doesn't show the mean parts of himself at school. They see him primarily as ADD inattentive, but at home he can be totally different. I also think he is rude to other kids at school and the teachers just don't notice or won't admit it to me.

What does anyone who has experience with children of that age think?

Thanks.


lisacap

Wow, I wish I could help you, I came on today to post about an 11 year with ADHD and possibly Bi-Polar. my son sounds just like yours, I was wondering what the symtems actually were, and if someone could explain in terms that most could understand, I have read a million aritciles but most don't pertain to him. He can be a great kid, get good grades, go to overnight camp and be camper of the session, but walks through my front door, and he is a total different child, mean, angry, easily aggitated, ready to take on and kill the world. I just met with a new team of doctors, for 3 hours this morning, with out him so I could talk, and this new doctor said he has classic sysmtem of bi-polar. He has been at the Mass General Hospital in Boston for the past three years, and the old doctor, never really diagonesed him bi-polar, he would every now and then give him a bi-polar med, depakote, risperdone, etc.. but more for a mood disorder, which I am assuming would be part of the bi-polar, he will do really well on it for a few weeks, then the anger, aggitation, etc. would be worse. Recently he has taken to stealing and his impulse control is gone. I do believe he is severe ADHD, but maybe the stimulants that have helped him since 5 are no longer working and a bi-polar med alone will be best. I am looking for classic symtems. Any help would be great.
Thanks
Lisa

momsboy

Oh wow, you both sound like you have my son living with you! My son will also be eleven in October. He scares me. I worry so much about his future because I don't know what to expect of him from hour to hour. I believe his dx from Children's Hospital in Houston is correct.....but is there more? From our experiences professionals can only dx early onset bipolar from what the parents witness and share with them. My son has been taking stims since the age of four. He's been through them all, but they all fizzle out after awhile. I really have no doubt that he has severe ADHD, ODD, Mood Disorder, but he's so off the wall sometimes that I don't know what to do. We've been though every behavior mod that anyone can think of and nothing, zip, nada.....nothing works. He's mean and hateful, primarily at home, but I don't feel like I can trust him out of my site. I feel like we're in a prison.....in fact, one therapist said, "he has made you a prisoner in your own home." That about sums it up! I thought bipolar was uncontrollable without meds, so then why is he usually the life of the party and charming, then a walking monster at home? My son is adopted, so if there's any family history I don't know it, but it wouldn't have been diagnosed in them anyway. I love him dearly, but our lives are very, very difficult.


lisacap

Too bad we didn't all live closer, we could put them together, and let them rule the world, in their own little boxes....
I have been taking Christian since he has been 4, back and forth to doctor's. As he is getting older he seems to be getting worse, and like you, I don't like him out of my site, because I never know what he will do next, and because he is so eager to fit in, he will do what ever any one tells him to do....I don't know much about bi-polar, I know tons about ADHD, and Christian is a classic severe case, he has been on so many different meds, I could un ADD half of Ethiopia with what I have here. When the ADD meds are working, he is fantastic, but for the past 2 years, the rebound from them is unexplainable, we have had everything from trying to kill himself, to running away, and hurting other people or property around him. I am more besides myself right now, because of the doctor change, and I feel like I have to start from day 1 again, and I don't want to do that. I also like you thought that Bi-polar's couldn't function with out meds, which I why I am having a hard time figuring out if he really is, all of the meds that he was on in the past, have lapsed out with in 2 weeks, and tweeking them up and down didn't help, it only made it worse. The one med risperdone, calmed him down so much to the point where he was lethargic, I thought he was doing quiet well after I adjusted them up and down some, but he never slept, and he never stopped eating, he gained 9 pounds in 3 weeks, so being on that med was not helping him any. When he was only on stimulants, he never ate, and was down to 65 pounds, but once they said mood disorder, and started adding other meds, he blew up, I kept him on Abilfy for the summer last year, and he went from 80 pounds at 9 to 125 over the course of the summer, again not healthy so we stopped it, he maintained that weight most of the year, but a month ago when his behaviors all got worse, stealing, breaking the windows at my mothers house, amoungst trying to hurt his brother and sister, I put him back on the mood disorder med Risperdone, and he gained 9 pounds in 3 weeks, he never stops eating....I am at my wits end with him, I know there is no mental issues on my side of the family, but I am not sure about my husbands, and my MIL is very quiet about everything, so I am not comfortable asking her. I am looking for my kid to be happy, the right mix of meds that will be able to get him to function inside and outside of my home, with him for the most part making the right decisions....I know this is long and rambly, but I have been a wreck since leaving the doctors today, and I figured this would be the best place to either vent, or get answers. Hopefully we will all be able to help each other.
Lisa

[misty]

jj

I find it disturbing and somehow comforting that there are four of us who are wondering if we are seeing bipolar in children around or 11 yr. olds. In my case it is my neice. If she isn't bipolar than she certainly has ODD. I pulled the list from the other thread regarding the signs reported by parents in children DX'd with bipolar. Maybe we can compare notes.

an expansive or irritable mood - Yes and she too can seem a perfect angel when anywhere but home.

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play - Has had sad moments crying and not wanting to live. Typically she loves to go to her friends house to play and go swimming. Normally she lives at the pool but recently has become very self-concious of her tummy just sticking out a little and now will not go to the pool and will cry about being fat (My sister is very much into eating right and staying slim so is this just mimicking her Mom and actually her Dad too??)

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - Yes

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - not destructive but explosive and lengthy.

separation anxiety - Not at all!!! In fact my sister has an awful time keeping track of her ever since she could walk.

defiance of authority - Her parents yes, me somewhat but for anyone else she is an angel.

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility - Yes, which is why she was DX'd in the first place ADHD

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much
bed wetting and night terrors - none of these - not sleeping more than typical kids however she claims to have had dreams of angels & religious-like dreams. (Our whole family very religious)I myself question whether my niece made this up or it really happend

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - yes but what kid doesn't plus both her parents adore sweets

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - She love activities if they involve horses or animals. Projects, no.

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - YES

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) Not to that extreem but she is a dare devil

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - Yes

delusions and hallucinations - not that I'm aware of but I suspect that she has made up some pretty good lies or she is having delusions but just in a couple instances

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) Nothing as extreem as defying laws of logic but certainly thinking she knows best and that her Mom is nothing but mean (when she can't get her way) and will nag and talk for hours just to get her way


lisacap

JJ,
Can you post that with out your answers then we can all answer them and compare, I tried to copy and paste, but it won't let me get rid of your answers to re post mine....

misty

HERE Ya go Lisa

an expansive or irritable mood -

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play -

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days -

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages -

separation anxiety -

defiance of authority -

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility -

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much-

bed wetting and night terrors -

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets -

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities -

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking -

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs)

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior -

delusions and hallucinations -

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example)


momsboy

PERFECT!! I will answer them all, too. Maybe if we compare notes we can come up with something!! Thanks!

[misty]

lisacap

an expansive or irritable mood - extremely, especially by the late afternoon

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play - for the most part, friendless, waits for someone to play with, then becomes to bossy or hyper and blows it

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - daily

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - yes and no, he will explode for long periods of time, but destroys his own things more than anyone elses..

separation anxiety - as much as he says he hates me, and hates being here, If I even attempt to leave, he has to know where, when and why, I am going somewhere, when I will be home, and will wait till I get there, call the cell a million times while I am gone...but can't stand me or being around me when I am home...go figure...will go to overnight camp with no problems.

defiance of authority - mostly in my home, or to my father who lives next door.

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility - extremely hyper, easily agitated, and if he is not intrested easily distracted.

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much- because of the ADD meds, he doesn't sleep well, and if i don't wake him, he will sleep till around noon. ( typical preteen)

bed wetting and night terrors - was a bed wetter young, and every now and then will still wet, but he has the tendancy to pee on his floor,

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - has alwasy craved carbs, bagels, cheese, toast, pasta etc..and will junk eat when ever he can

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - no

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - very impulsive, he just stole my neices phone, knew he was going to get caught, knew he was going to be in trouble, but doesn't know how to stop, when the thought gets in his head....will run out the street with out looking, or just take off in a crowd if he sees something else he may want to do.

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) not anymore, he was younger, would climb walls and jump from teh fire place to the ceiling fan....

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - yes

delusions and hallucinations - never heard him speak of any, though I can't say there not there

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) not to fly, though spinning of the fan was close, he doesn't believe in any authority what so ever, he is not afraid of the after, so with the severe impulse and thinking he is invinsible, I could say that he thinks he can defy the laws of logic.

Thanks misty for posting it with out the answers...
JJ I hope I am not being to nosey, but you put yes next to sexual behaviors, as I did as well, it there anything about the behavior that you would be willing to share with me, I can PM you so it is not public, I would like to share what I have gone through as well, the doctor told me today, that inappropiate sexual behavior was one of the biggest signs of bi-polar, so I am just curious as to what she may be doing and if it is similar to what Chrisitan is doing, is it just age? or is it truly a form of the bi-polar?
My biggest fear has come true today by that doctor saying those words to me, for years I thought, but never wanted it to be a realitly, I can deal with ADHD, I have had it for years, but being Bi_polar, just scares me...
thanks for all your help
Lisa
Thats great Moms boy, that you are going to answer as well, maybe between us, we can help these kids or come up with some solutions on how to handle the aggitation, and everything else that goes with it...


momsboy

an expansive or irritable mood - Unless he's being entertained, he's a huge grump all the time

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play -he sits on the curb waiting to play, but he's run everyone off and they won't play with him any longer

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - He's never had changing moods that lasted days, but the moods change often

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - my son is VERY explosive. Anything can set him off. He threatens to destroy things, but he doesn't follow-through...yet

separation anxiety -SEVERE!!!!! He's slept in our bedroom since getting out of his crib. If he goes to the movie with his father (ahhhh, I have two hours of peace), he calls me from the movie to see what I'm doing

defiance of authority - He never, never, ever listens to authority figures. He's mostly defiant to me. He will never do a thing I ask, and smirks the whole time.

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility -Severely hyper. I feel sorry for him. Unless he's medicated, he can't even sit to eat dinner.

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much-My son takes Clonidine to help sleep, but until it kicks in he is literally jumping on the bed.

bed wetting and night terrors - he's never wet the bed, but has encopresis. To my knowledge, he doesn't have night terrors, but he's terrified of the dark.

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - He eats sweets and carbs like there's no tomorrow. He hides food so that he can get to it at any time because I started locking the pantry.

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - no

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - Some days I have to scream at him to stop talking or I'm going to go NUTZ!

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) He's only jumped out of a moving car once and I reacted with horror, so he's not done it since.

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - All I can say is that he's tried to French kiss me, but I saw it coming and deflected. Now when he wants to hug he comes at me with hands forward like he's going to grab my breasts. He never has, but......

delusions and hallucinations - Not that I'm aware of

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) My son is the BEST at everything...just ask him!! He thinks he can dunk a basketball and he's 4'2"!!

Thanks so much for posting these subjects. Now maybe we can compare notes and come up with something! I feel so badly for our children....we need to find out what's really going on so we can all move forward.


lisacap

Well they all pretty much sound the same, we have mostly the same answers except I am the only one with a bed wetter.
Are any of them only children, I have 2 others younger than him.
I do notice and if you have other kids, I would love to know if you notice this too, that he will intentionaly do stuff to them to get them in trouble, so that he is not the only one always being yelled at...now today was just him and I for most of the afternoon, my husband took the other 2 out and he didn't want to go,,,,he was a angel all afternoon, never yelled, screamed, or had a meltdown the whole day, I went in the pool with him, and he played his PSP or PS2 and was fine, with in minutes of them coming homel, they were both crying, he was screaming and it turned into a family disater,,,,is anyone elses house like this?
Is this part of the bi-polar, or is it that he wants me and no one else to have me...I just don't get it..Hopefully we will all be able to find some answers, I think it is so sad to watch my poor kid be so alone, and sad, and miserable, and feel so worthless all the time, it has to be horrible for them.

BTW Momsboy.......Christian excells at everything he does as well, and the sad part is, he is probally the worse one on all the team sports he plays, but he can kick his sister's butt in basketball so as far as he is concerned " HE RULES"

[misty]

Charlie Girl

an expansive or irritable mood - can be both at different times

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play - He goes in streaks. he can have weeks of seeming cheerful and then weeks of being cheerful on the surface but saying things that show me he is depressed and covering it up

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - definitely

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - so far he threatens to destry but doesn't follow through. He destroyed something that was important to him quite a while ago and we refused to replace it so he knows that if he wants his stuff, he has to take care of it. He is very explosive but doesn't stay at that pitch for any length of time.

separation anxiety - He will go places and be away from me for hours happily, even spend the night at certain friend's houses but he gets really upset if I am not at home so he can call me. He will sleep in a different room from me now but still sometimes wakes up at night and comes into my room. He has to be in complete control of the seperation and know that I am easily accesible if he needs me.

defiance of authority - he is to me especially, his father as much as he can get away with and with his sister somewhat, but mainly with me. He will go to school and other places and they tell me how sweet and well behaved he is but he is also defient to me in front of others

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility - not hyperactive but will wander around unable to settle on doing one thing sometimes, hard to keep him focused on something unless its important to him.

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much- has never required as much sleep as most kids but will keep short hours for weeks and then have a night where he falls asleep and sleeps 12 or 14 hrs straight

bed wetting and night terrors - not bed wetting but had night terrors when younger

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - loves those carbs!

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - I don't think so unless you call being addicted to PS2 games excessive involvement

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - can talk non stop, very impulsive

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) evel kneivel on his bike and skateboard

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - I'm not sure. I suspect but don't know for sure

delusions and hallucinations - thinks he is psychic, can see ghosts and I think at one point he told me they talked to him

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) again, he thinks he is psychic. He is convinced that he would win American Idol if I would only let him try out in spite of the fact that he refuses lessons for anything, claiming he is already the best. He took baritone lessons this year and can barely do the scales but still thinks he can pick up a guitar and automatically be able to play, he just is conviced he is the most talented person in the world or something.


misty

I want to answer this so you all can compare your answers to a child I know without a doubt is NOT bi-polar.

an expansive or irritable mood - My daughter is very irritable alot. I think mostly its horemones though. Shes at that age.

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play - no

rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - Yes, but again, it seems to be only certain days of the month when her horemones are kicking up.

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - never

separation anxiety - Never. I cried on her first day of preschool. She never looked back. I do wonder if some of her sleep problems early on were separation anxiety related since her bedroom was on a different floor than ours but I'm not sure. Shes never been afraid to be awayfrom us, or even called home once when away.

defiance of authority - yes. Only with her father & I. Never with anyone else.

hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility -Shes not the hyper type although she can get wound up. Shes somewhast distractible, depending on the activity shes involved in & how enjoyable it is to her.

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much-TOO little. She has trouble falling asleep & has a "Night Owl" personality like her MOM!

bed wetting and night terrors - Never. Not even as a small child.

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - YES! bread, donuts, candy, cake, bagels, she would eat that constantly if I let her!

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - no except the computer!

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - impulsitivity yes. Racing thoughts are what they tell you keeps ADHDers up at night so I suppose those too.

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) no

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - no

delusions and hallucinations - no

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) [/quote] no


jj

O.K. You guys. I read over your answers and I found myself needing to add some of the things you mentioned that my neice does too.

an expansive or irritable mood - Yes and she too can seem a perfect angel when anywhere but home.

extreme sadness or lack of interest in play - Has had sad moments crying and not wanting to live. Typically she loves to go to her friends house to play and go swimming. Normally she lives at the pool but recently has become very self-concious of her tummy just sticking out a little and now will not go to the pool and will cry about being fat (My sister is very much into eating right and staying slim so is this just mimicking her Mom and actually her Dad too??) Adding, she always wanted to hang out with older girls and would be very bossy and hyper (goofy) and these young teens basically wanted nothing more than to ditch her. She has one friend.
rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days - Yes

explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages - not destructive but explosive and lengthy.

separation anxiety - Not at all!!! In fact my sister has an awful time keeping track of her ever since she could walk. If the roles are reversed and my sister wants to leave her at home (with her 18 yr old brother/her Dad or both) then she is very unhappy UNLESS she can go do what she wants to do with her friend. Otherwise, my sister is receiving phone call after phone call with her asking, "When are you coming home Mom" Her perspective is if Mom can go do something than I should be able to also
defiance of authority - Her parents yes, me somewhat but for anyone else she is an angel. Adding: My neice finds great pleasure in initiating a fight with her Mom. She will smirk and completely enjoy antagonizing her Mom. Absolutely gets great pleasure in saying hurtful and cruel things to her Mom
hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility - Yes, which is why she was DX'd in the first place ADHD

sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much
bed wetting and night terrors - none of these - not sleeping more than typical kids however she claims to have had dreams of angels & religious-like dreams. (Our whole family very religious)I myself question whether my niece made this up or it really happend

strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets - yes but what kid doesn't plus both her parents adore sweets

excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities - She love activities if they involve horses or animals. Projects, no.

impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking - YES

dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs) Not to that extreem but she is a dare devil

inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior - Yes

delusions and hallucinations - not that I'm aware of but I suspect that she has made up some pretty good lies or she is having delusions but just in a couple instances

grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example) Nothing as extreem as defying laws of logic but certainly thinking she knows best and that her Mom is nothing but mean (when she can't get her way) and will nag and talk for hours just to get her way

[misty]

jj
I just want to go cry! We are seeing such similarities. I've been looking at bipolar for some time regarding my neice and when I read about a certain behavior I'll tell myself I'm pretty certain she is bipolar....have a good cry, think I'm accepting it and then I read something else, cry again. And now looking at these comparisons...well, I guess I will go and have another good cry.

And I'm the Auntie, I'm not the parent. I just don't know how my sister will ever accept this if I can't seem to get there. I want to go back and explain away all those things I listed. My heart just goes out to you parents facing this.


lisacap

Cry Cry Cry, that is all I seem to do....I could go redo some of my answers as well but I think we all got the jist of how these kids are....Christian LOVES to see me upset, I swear it makes his day, he also loves to be the one screaming....I don't know about you guys, but I am at my wits end on how to handle him anymore, how disicipline what to ignore and what to yell at...they keep telling me to keep an even keel with him, pick and choose my battles, after all these years I can't do it....

I started thinking bi-polar last year, but like you I didn't want the blood draws, the med vamping, and everything else that went with it. I also and I know this may sound vain, didn't want him to blow up from the meds, which he did last summer when they first called it a mood disorder and started him on some of the bi-polar meds...looking through the doctors notes, he has started on a new med but with in weeks, it was stopped because of his behaviors or mood swings, aggitation level or anxiety levels just got worse..

I do question, is he really Bi-Polar, have the ADD meds that he has been on and gone through most on the market, just plain screwed him up even more. When he was little and I took him to be evelauated time after time, until he was school age, he was only diagonesed with SEVERE ADHD and that was it. Where did the Bi-Polar come from, and has he been misdiagonesed so all these years on the ADD meds, should he have been on something different...

I would like to know what your kids are taking if they are on any meds, I know with Christian, once his meds start working in the morning he is fine, for everyone but me, but the mood level and mood swings seem to be increasing daily,,the risperdone, helped him for a few days, that was it, then it was like he wasn't taking anything...Right now Christian is taking 30 mlg's of Ritalin LA with a 20 booster of regular Ritalin in the morning with a 20 booster at 2 P.M. and 0.2 of Clonadine at night, that seems to do nothing at all any more, most nights I give him benadryl to knock him out, just so I can have a little peace and quiet....this is all so confusing.
And yes he has been in therapy since 5, does it work, I haven't found it to do to much, I don't know how it will go on Tuesday when he meets the new doctor, but I have to give it a shot....


momsboy

My son isn't an only child, but he's the only one left at home. Luckily, we don't have sibling issues. We adopted him at birth some time after the untimely death of our bio son. Our daughter was already married and lives many states away from us. Since he has no siblings to torture, he directs it at our two Yorkies (and me).

My son's separation anxiety is so severe that he used to kick on the bathroom door while I showered. Now he lays across my feet while I put on my makeup or dry my hair. Every night before going to sleep, he gets in bed with us to cuddle until I insist he gets OUT! His father says, "It's like having another man in bed with us." I thought when he became a tween it would stop' however; his maturity is at least two years behind and becoming more obvious every day. I worry about middle school in another year. Are your children immature?


lisacap

I can't really say he is immature, he is young, he is also a year ahead in school which is now starting to show the age difference, when he is in a group with 10 year olds, he is fine, and thinks he is the smartest and knows everything but what I do notice when he is in school and the kids are all already 11 and now turning 12, where he won't be 11 until after school starts, so he starts the year still being 10, he does show signs of immaturity, he tries to fit in and talk and act like the older kids, unfortunatly half the time he has no clue as to what he is even talking about so he gets himself in trouble for his mouth.....or made fun of.

The seperation was never as bad as you have it, when he was very young, baby and toddler years, he was pretty bad, would puke as soon as l left him from crying, but it stopped once he started school...

Charlie Girl

If we are all seeing such similar behavior from our kids at that age, its possible its just a manifestation of the ADHD and possibly some hormones kicking in also.

I think we should have them re-examined but its encouraging to me to know I am not alone in dealing with this.

If there are any parents of children with ADHD or bipolar who are over 12 or 13, did you see this behavior in your kid at 10 or 11?

[misty]

lisacap

You might have something there,,,,could it be puberty, or the meds needing to be changed because of them getting older...or is it that this is the age where the bi-polar becomes more prominant than the ADHD....it is worth looking into and hopefully we can get some responses from parents with older children who may or may not have experienced what we are experiencing now.

Today when he got up instead of giving him 20 of ritalin I gave him 30 and so far there has been no aggression, anger or meltdowns, he is pretty quiet just playing is psp...but I won't really know how he is until the other 2 come home, they are out with my father right now, so it may just be nice and calm because they are not here, or it may be that he just needed more....

I will probaly know better around 3 when the meltdowns usually start....

jj

I'm afraid I don't remember what ADHD med my neice was started on when first DX'd ADHD. I do know my neice flat out refused to take it because she hated how it made her feel.

My sister then put her on Omega's/magnesium but I guess just stopped that and I'm not sure why. (I'll have to ask her)

Midway in the school year my neice was put Ritalin (a very low dose I do remember) but my sister said that it only helped her for a very short period of time during homework (my sister homeschools) and that was it. My sister stopped the Ritalin for the summer and it just didn't seem to be helping all that much.

As far as maturity - it is so hard to know since I am not living with my neice day to day and then add all the other "issues" to weed through it is hard to know if it is ADHD/Bipolar or just immaturity.

misty

Well, My daughter at age 10 would NOT under any circumstances sleep in her own room. She had to be where couldhear us moving around. She would even then come out 5-10 times with excuses & "NEEDING" things. At age 11 we moved & she immediately & ever since has slept in her own room.

She started getting MOODY! I mean downright ignorant at times & she acted like she was the "Be all end all" if you know what I mean.

At age 11 she got her period so I'm sure this was the horemones kicking in.

She can be OH SO SWEET to everyone & pull her attitude at home. I mean she will throw a FIT if she wants to do something & you arent letting her. Usually only if its something big like going somewhere or having a friend over. Shes pretty good about having to turn off the TV or not being allowed candy before dinner, etc.

I remember once when she was 11 I was reprimanding her & she just REFUSED to listen & kept turning the radio up louder & louder till finally I went in & told her I was taking the radio away. She started SCREAMING & holding onto the radio. I actually had to pry it from her & then she started throwing things at the door as I left.

Once she threw the TV remote at me too. You could tell it was impulsive..the look on her face was one of horror the second she did it & realized she had thrown something at me. Same with the time she was so mad she pulled the ceiling fan chain on the way out of the kitchen & yanked the chain right off.

I know she has no chance...shes German, Irish & American Indian. temper is built into her genes!

I hope that helps some. Thats my ADD daughter. how much of her behavior is ADD & how much is genetic? I dont know. How much does the fact that shes a girl just having started puberty? Thats another factor. I had temper problems myself at her age & I'm not ADD, so who knows?

jj

All right. So now I'm thinking maybe it isn't bipolar we are seeing. As far as my neice and my answering yes to the inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior question....well, I had another member from another site (and a member here as well) say she was very precocious in that area and she isn't ADHD or Bipolar. And as far as the boys maybe some inappropriate behaviors is just part of growing up and as an ADHD kid they have a hard time understanding what is appropriate and what is not and then add the impulsiveness and what to you get? Maybe not anything to worry about. (I know...I keep going back and forth on this)

I know that ADHD kids will have melt-downs when meds wear off. I know they can get really upset if things don't go as planned. So maybe it just depends on how severe their ADHD is.

And these kids in the 11ish bracket are probably having huge hormone changes going on......

I guess I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.



momsboy

SEE??? SEE? That's exactly why I've not gone the bipolar route yet. I always have these doubts that maybe I'm over-reacting and I'd not want him to have that hanging over him if I wasn't absolutely sure that he was bipolar. He's TEN.....maybe alot of it is hormones now, but maybe not, or then again maybe so......ohhhhh I hate this. I hate not knowing what's wrong so I can try to make it better for him! I also hate six years of different therapists and them not giving me better clues as to what I should or should not be seeing...

[misty]

jj

I don't know about anyone else and I'm sure it is totally different for a parent than an Auntie but I know that my niece should see a Neuro psych that knows bipolar and ADHD so she can get DX'd properly. I know this. BUT does anyone else fear taking that step? I know I am holding back pushing or urging my sister to do this. I mentioned it but never followed up.

Somewhere I just am not sure I trust whatever the outcome will be. I guess if they said, no she just has ADHD I would be relieved but if they said she is bipolar I'm not sure I would believe them even knowing all I know, even knowing I have been looking a bipolar for a long time.

I also know that everyone says it is so important to get the DX as soon as possible. The sooner you know the more it will help the child in the long run. I know this too but still I just have this fear they will load her up with medication and I'll never see my neice again...as she is now, with the good and the bad.

Having bipolar is not the end of the world. I know there are medications that help....yet ...something is stopping me from urging my sister to pursue that DX.


lisacap

Ok, I haven't been in here two days, I am still having a hard time with this half butt bi-polar diagonis....I took it upon myself on Wednesday, after having two whole days of my own meltdowns, and decieded to adjust his ADHD meds on my own, I raised his ritalin from 20 regular to 30 in the morning, and gave him the ritalin LA 30 with it, like every other morning,,,,I waited nothing....not outbursts, not tantrums, no meltdowns,,,,2:00 P.M. time for regular 20 Ritalin dose, took it no problem...ventured into the yard to go in the pool, read all 3 of them the riot act, first time I have to yell, anyone's hands go on anyone. any unfair competition's we are IN and you are all in your beds. 3:00 nothing, 4:00 nothing, 5:00 nothing, now in the back of my mind I know it is coming...and I am waiting....6:30, time for clonadine, 7:00 asked , Can I take a shower, 9:00 asked for some benadryl, because he wanted to go to sleep...got by day 1 with my upping the ADHD med...Thursday, woke up happy and compliant, please and thank you came out of his mouth, played with the little ones, and they survived it..did the same meds on Thursday, waited all day again no meltdowns, anger aggresion etc....decieded at 5:00 that I would try and venture out with all 3 of them, again read the riot act... we can go to dinner and do something fun, but first time I have to speak...we come home, made it through dinner, then over to hit a bucket of balls, and get and Ice cream, then a stop at Walmart for some house crap, got home 9:30...asked again to shower, took meds, and went to bed....Friday, I figured today is the day he explodes, lo and behold, we just got home at 8:30...went in the pool this afternoon for awhile, then he had the choice to go to work with dad or come with me to Mikayla's softball practice and welcome back party, chose to come with me, some of his friends from school were there, he had one outburst the whole time, because he got yelled at at the beach for talking back, other than that no problem, now he is in bed, showered AGAIN with out being told, asked for his meds, and hasn't come back out of his room.....
Now back to the bi=polar, could we be seeing that when the structure of school ends, and the uncertainty of what the summer may bring, as well as the age and puberty setting in, or happening faster than , there already speeding minds, can handle, that they are tending to go off the deep end quicker? Do the ADHD med's just need to be adjusted because of all of this? I know rebound, I have seen it for years in him, some of it seems to be more late in the afternoon when the med's are wearing off, do I need to just a booster later in the afternoon, to keep and even keel coming down, where I am doing 30 AM, 20 PM @ 2, should I consider adding a 10 @ 4,,,do bring the coming down, not so drastic, and maybe be tolerable for him...I know I am rambling out loud, or actually to my fingers LOL...but I am trying to make sense of all of this, like you all are....but since I haven't been on, I thought you may like to see what I have observered over the past 3 days.
I was with a friend of his mother today, and she actually brought up, how her son was being more and more sexually inquisitive....no bi-polar, no ADHD, and will be 12 in December, could the sex stuff just be that these kids are growing up in FAST America, where we at there age were still playing Barbie...just some food for thought.....


Charlie Girl

I do agree with you that they are at the age where they are sexually inquisitive. You have a good point there.

Thanks for sharing that about his meds adjustment and how it affected him.

Maybe I really need to get my son on meds for school. I'll talk to the dr about it and maybe try him on some this summer so I know for sure. That way, if he does go into a mania, I'll have him here with me so I can act immediately and his friends from school won't have one more thing to tease him about.

I'm really glad you have such positive results with just upping his dose a bit. I bet he is happier also.

jj

Awe geeze. Remember me saying my neice has told me what I suspected were made up (lies) stories about religious dreams. There is more to this than just dreams but I was surfing the net and look what I found:Grandiosity is a symptom of mania or hypomania in bipolar disorder (aka manic depression). In the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV (DSM IV) it is used in combination with several other symptoms to confirm a diagnosis of this disorder. This symptom also occurs in children with early onset bipolar disorder.
Roget's II: Thesaurus defines grandiosity as "boastful self-importance or display" and offers the words "ostentation," "pomposity" and "pretension" to further illustrate this definition. In short, it is an exaggerated sense of one's importance, power, knowledge or identity. It often has religious overtones.

bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_grandiosity.htm

And I do want to add that my neices Auntie on her Dad's side has bipolar. The rest of the family aside from my BIL all have problems with alcohol and drugs.
Edited to clarify & add...on my BIL's side there is the alcohol/drug abuse. On my side/my sister's side I have a brother who drinks but the rest of us rarely drink. Mother of my neice ADHD, me probably ADD, and a sister who is different.



Charlie Girl

Its possible that she is experiencing mania JJ.

There are many kids who are put down so much due to their ADHD that they develop overactive imaginations and talk big trying to get people so see them as valuable or important. Her self esteem could be much lower than you realize. Sometimes they dream their lofty dreams so much that they lose track of what is reality and what is just a day dream. Its a longing to be accepted but not a hallucination.

If I were you, I would try to talk her mom into having her examined by a neuropsych to make sure. I know you love her very much and are going to worry until you know for sure.

[misty]

momsboy

After going to my son's psychiatrist (all he does is dispense drugs), I said these stims are just not working very well (again). Since he DOES have a dx of "mood disorder", the psychiatrist agree to try a low dose of Depakote, saying it may have to be increased. I know very little about mood stabilizers, but I'm fisin' to find out. The most important thing he told me was to give it to him on a full stomach in the evening. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

annem

Good Luck JJ for your niece and momsboy for your son .. I can understand so well the hesitancy in getting bipolar diagnosed ... and the reluctance of putting on that label unless it really IS bipolar ....

I don't have much experience on bipolar except for people I have known who have it... one of which is my adopted cousin. Apparently her biological mother had bipolar. However, my cousin (who is now in her mid 20's) wasn't diagnosed until she was around 23 ... This was honestly toooooo darned late for a diagnosis (although better late than never) ... but IF ONLY it had been recognised earlier in her life (and to be honest looking back the symptoms were certainly there!) it could possibly have saved both she and her parents from a lot of problems and heartache later on ...

I sure am no expert but I had been thinking for 2-3 years before her official diagnosis that she was showing soooo many clear signs of bipolar ... but I sure do wish for her sake and her parents that it had been properly recognised much earlier...

I hope that if either of the kids mentioned here actually do have bipolar that it gets recognised and treated accordingly ... which of course includes NO STIMS!! .. *BIG HUGS*


bugsmom

Hi everyone! I just came across this thread, don't know how I missed it before, but I just had to comment. My son started having some of the symptoms you are all taking about last year. Not to the exteme as some of you, but enough that I had to look into the bi-polar connection. Boy it scared me to death. His stims stopped working after years of no problems, he was very moody, crying, meltdowns, nightmares...I could go on. Anyway, I had been asking his psychologist about the possibility of bi-polar and he ruled it out right away, as did his ped. I had a full evaluation by a new psychiatist done and she also ruled out bi-polar right away. Although I was relieved, I still didn't have all my questions answered. I was watching my once happy little guy continue to be miserable. Not all the time, but the mood swings were crazy. Well it all boiled down that he was experiencing tremendous anxiety. He always was a pretty anxious kid, but it just started to get out of control. All the acting out was stemming from an awful school year with a unbelievable cruel teacher. (I wasn't aware of what was really going on at school, he didn't tell me his teacher was so mean to him. I found out from another parent whose kid told them). Anyway, I think as parents we often scare ourselves into thinking the worst possible senerio. I thought for sure my little guy had bi-polar and it just wasn't the case. Not to say that some kids may be, its just that in my case, I read into too much at the time. When our kids are really struggling and we're going nuts we just want answers. I feel for all of you. What I find so interesting about this thread is all our little guys are the same age. I know with my son, I have to really remember that he is about 2 years behind in maturity. I think with their dx of adhd, the immaturity, and the hormones starting to kick in, that we need to take it all in account. Now that we know that my son has terrible anxiety (which runs rampant on my side of the family) we have been dealing with it with meds and I feel like my old son is slowly coming back, but boy has it been a loooooooooong year. I could still say yes to about half of those questions mentioned above, but we've come a long way. Good Luck to all of you and your little ones. Keep the updates comming.

jj

My sister just called tonight. She is upset. My niece, as some of you know, may have to have surgery to correct her scoliosis. She would need two rods in her back just like her Mom (my sister) had to have. The curves are just different. Anyway, my sister said my niece is in such a deep depression. She is saying she wishes she had never been born because of this possible surgery. This breaks my heart as I'm sure it does 10x over for my sis. O.k. Here I go questioning things. My niece isn't coming out of this depression. Can something bad trigger the down side of bipolar or am I reading to much into this? I remember as a teen saying "I wish I never was born" when I didn't get my way but my niece is just 12. What do you guys think? Anytime a kid talks about wishing they did not exist, it scares the cr*p out of me.


leigh

JJ.....I have to say this. My older son has frightened me with "I wish I were dead" comments. My husband, who is cool as a cucumber and NEVER overreacts to anything.....EVER (must be the British blood) said it was only for attention. Well.....duh! I haven't heard my son say this often, and I honestly believe he'd never do anything to himself, but there HAVE been times I seen him either extremely anxious and momentarily VERY upset with himself (angry with or disappointed in himself), and he has said some things that alarmed me such as "I wish I were just dead now." Then he'll cry and say something like, "Am I going to go to you-know-where for that?" (he means Hell). We've gone to therapy before for various things. I don't think we've found the answer. Like you, though, those comments terrify me. And truthfully, medication terrifies me, too.....only because of my son's experience with it over four years. ADHD meds (countless changes over a four year period) played a number on him. I know it's not like that for everyone, though. I'll be interested in hearing what everyone has to say about the "I wish I were dead" question.


I have read through a lot of this thread over the weeks. It touched a nerve. My 10 year old (who has been off meds for a year and a half) was at one time put on bipolar meds in conjunction with the ADHD meds because we were thinking the bipolar meds would help the moodiness we assumed was coming from the ADHD meds (he was very good at school, but would get off the bus as the meds were wearing off....crying and just unable to hold it together if something disappointed him). There were many questions as to whether or not we could be dealing with some form of mild bipolar, but after reading and reading and reading (for months), I really didn't think that was what we were dealing with. Sometimes I wonder, though. My son has some symptoms that MIGHT be considered bipolar-like (mildly, I'm guessing), but nothing like I read about in "The Bipolar Child" or on line or with the doctor. He fit ADHD criteria, though, 100%. Still, there was a COUNSELOR, once, who thought this was bipolar (she decided this from TWO things! BECAUSE I told her he would cry, beg and plead if I said no to something.....and that once when he was six, he kicked his wall while in time out and put a small hole there). SHE'S the one who suggested bipolar meds in conjunction with the ADHD meds, so I went to the doctor with this. The doctor agreed to try bipolar meds with the ADHD meds. The ONLY thing that happened was my son had a majorly bad reaction to the first one (Risperidal) and was unable to walk one morning due to a muscular reaction. TERRIFYING! The next thing didn't really do anything at all. When the doctor suggested anxiety meds with the ADHD meds, Tourrettes meds to help with the tics caused by the stimulants and possibly a sleeping med to help offset THAT issue caused by the ADHD meds, I just said ENOUGH! I took him off meds, and I haven't regretted that at all.

I don't know. All this is a bit overwhelming, and I really don't think we're dealing with bipolar. I don't. BUT......I'm very interested in it because nevertheless, the behavior issues we do have, though often short-lived, can FEEL really big to me when they happen. I also think a big part of the problem is ME. My reaction to things is totally different from my husband's. I tend to overreact and exaggerate, I think. My husband is always pretty laid back and never freaks out over anything. He claims we're a good mix for that. Hmmmm. I suppose that's true.....at times.



Okay, everyone answer JJ's question, because I'd like to hear your thoughts, too! Don't let me hi-jack the topic over to my child. I just wanted to let you know that this is a topic of major interest to me and why.

[misty]

misty

First of all, I've never heard my daughter say she wishes she were dead, not born, etc. Shes either happy or MAD & MOODY, but hardly ever sad.

BUT I'm thinking that during adolescence, thoughts of extreme sadness & wishes of not having been born are fairly normal. NOT as a rule, but as an occassional thought. I can remember saying I'd "Kill myself" or I "wished I was dead" when I was that age & something happened to embarass me in front of my friends. I remember hearing my sister say that too. Neither of us is bipolar, ADHD, etc. We were just girls adjusting to changing hormones.

I would imagine something as devastating to a child as having to have scary surgery would indeed cause thoughts of wishing she didn't exist. I actually thinkhearing your child wishing they didn't exist is MUCH less scary than hearing them say they want to kill themselves. I agrere it bears watching, but it may just be her way of expressing her fears of the surgery & wishing she didn't need to have it.


lisacap

I hear it constantly especially when my son doesn't get his way....it always starts with, I hate you, you like everyone but me, I wish I was dead, you would be happy if I wasn't born, he is 11 and has been saying it for about 2 years now, I compeltly freaked out the first time he said, but have no just started ignoring it, it is all for attention, and in his case, he doesn't care what kind of attention he gets, as long as he is the loudest and rambling on and on he in his own little world is happy.


katiekat

JJ, Im sure the fear of the surgery plays a big part in this. I had to have surgery on my leg when I was 11 and I was terrified. Like your niece my surgery was planned not a sudden emergency and the more time you have to think about it the scarier it gets. I remember not being able to sleep, and crying to my mom, and blaming her for the problem with my leg and just being really angry. I was certain I was going to die in surgery. I dont know much about the bi-polar thing but it could be just fear. Hope things get better for her.


jj

Thanks everyone for all for your responses...they help me put a little more perspective on this. It IS A SCARY THING, surgery. And Leigh, this is why I'm in such a unsure state. I don't want to encourage my sister that this could be bipolar just because it may not be. I also worry about ADHD meds if she is bipolar.


I hope I am over reacting but when my sister calls sobbing because her daughter is crying and crying and not coming out of the depression (for days) and saying those kinds of things it just freaks me out considering we are still not sure if it is bipolar or not.

I know when I said that to my Mom, "I wish I were dead" it was done and over with by the next day or within hours. All was forgotten. I know Nikki said that to me and the same thing. Over with in a hour or so.

I'll let you know how she is doing after I give my sis a call tomorrow, if I can get ahold of her.

Thanks again. You guys are great!!