Topic: Putting a Stop to Toxic Thoughts

[misty]

John

as with many/most people with ADhD, I have some co-existing issues that have hopped aboard the ADD train [ I like to paint 'word-pictures' that help me/others get a better idea of unfamiliar ideas & concepts].
Without going into detail at this time, some of the 'baggage' on the train with me are; Low-self esteem, guilt, anxiety, procrastination,and passive-aggressive[ which more accurately should be called Aggressive-Passivism].
You start out just talking about how you feel about some problem/conflict, which in marriage seem to be at an abundance somehow. Then the therapist [ mines name is Paula] asks something like, what were you feeling at the time, how did you feel later, how could you have handled the conflict differently, et cetera, et cetera.

TO BE CONTINUED . . .



misty

Thanks John. It sounds interesting. And helpful. I'm waiting for part 2. I just hate these cliffhangers! I imagine its easier to talk to someone you arent close to also.

I have to say though, I think we must help your self-esteem issues here. You have to know you are much loved by all of us!



John

Yes Dawn, it is much eaiser to talk to someone that you don't really know, to me Paula is like an elderly Aunt that I can go to for advice [But I have to paY her, What's Up With ThaT ? LOV V V L !].

YES, YOU GUYS HAVE Boosted My SELF-ESTEEM ! ! !



John

OK, here's more of the ''To be continued'' . . .

Last week I was talking to my therapist, wewere talking about me being unable/unwilling/afraid to face any anger issues. Kathy will make demands on me and I'll unable to say to her no, that makes me feel that you . . . or that makes me angery that you would say that . . . or I feel that you are not considering how that makes me feel . . . you get the Idea.

Then Paula [therapist] says I think your afraid of expressing your own anger ~ and BaM ! I just started crying . . .
Whoa, i didn't see that coming . . . She explained to me that as a child, I had no control over all the stuff that happened to me and I was angry about it. Since I couldn't verbalise it I had to bury it inside . . . and I was afraid [and still am] that if I express it, two things will happen. I will either destroy everyone or I'll be destroyed.
So the fear I have is contained behind a huge thick wall, like a dam, and when Paula started talking about me being afraid of my anger, a small crack apeared in the dam . . .
I told her I saw my anger like a bridge that ended in the middle and I would fall off if I went that way . . .

So NOW I have to figure out HOW to express anger in a healthy way . . . anger in and of itself is not wrong, only uncontrlled anger is unhealthy. I guess i've never seen controlled anger only uncontrolled. So I have no idea how to carry this out . . . baby step-baby steps
To me anger is bad, dangerous, to be avoided, & scary. How can there be such a thing as healthy or good anger . . . it does not compute . . .

[misty]

leigh

What a breakthrough for you, John. I don't know about you, but when something makes me cry like that, it feels like a serious load OFF my shoulders (at least temporarily). I totally understand what you mean about feeling anger is "bad" and "dangerous." I've seen that in my past! I have my own issues with it, too. I don't know how to have "healthy" anger. That confuses me! LOL!!!!! I suppose FIRMLY standing up for yourself and letting your feelings be known without screaming or getting physical is what this therapist (and MOST therapists) mean. Perhaps the point is to get your feelings out in the open and being able to walk away from it calmly, knowing you didn't disappoint yourself by holding it in and feeling like a pushover. I don't know. I have to work on lowering my volume when I'm angry. I don't hold that in too much (verbally). LOL! I think we may be opposites in that way, but I relate to your concerns. I'm glad you had a good cry. To me......that's progress!


Wouldn't it be wonderful to sit down and write on a piece of paper the childhood experiences we'd like to just erase from our past......toss the paper in the fire........and poof! Bad memories gone!



Charlie Girl

I think Leigh is right John. Healthy anger is recognizing the wrong and dealing with it in a constructive manner. You don't have to bottle it up inside you. That isn't healthy.

It sounds like your therapist is really good. I'm sure she will help you figure out how to do that, then you can teach the rest of us.



lostmyshoe

It seems to be that lots of people are either one way or the other. Some unable to control the outward expression of anger(me) and others that keep it inside. The happy medium is the best place to be in my opinion and I sure wish I could stay there. I think it was good that this subject was opened up John because I need work too in this area. I think the next time I see my therapist this is something I need to talk about as I blew up at my daughter today and am feeling really bad. She took the phone and hid it because she didn't want to answer her girlfriends call. I got angry because there could have been an emergency and someone may have needed to get through. I don't know what it is about the phone, but I get very angry when my daughter refuses to answer it or plays games with it. Today I was just over the top and I feel horrible. I explode too easy and can't contain my anger. I have the complete opposite problem. It's horrible and I pray that some day I will learn not to raise my voice anymore except in song. So sad today and disappointed in myself. I think counseling is the best thing you can do for yourself and baby steps sometimes is the only way you can do it. Sounds like you are taking steps in the right direction John. Keeping you and your situation in my prayers and anyone else here that is dealing with this issue. Dee

[misty]

john

ToBeContinued :

Well today we talked some more about anger and some of the things it means to me . . .

Talked about Feeling Angry & Expressing Anger & What Makes you Angry.

Explosive Anger is an "Anger Action''

Anger needs to be [felt] verbalized, either Internally or xternally.

When there is Explosive Anger, it makes the person who is doing it, feel better temporally . Everyone around them is in the 'fallout' and has to deal with ''their'' anger now. The whole 'get it all out of your system'' concept sounds good, but actually has the ''opposite'' effect on all parties involved. The feeling of 'explosive anger' actually, blots out or shuts down the rational control section of your mind. Hence the phrase, ''He was out of his mind with anger''.

The goal is to be able to express what made you angry, and be in control of your ''feelings'' of anger. Anger is just a ''feeling'', we can express it in a Uncontrollable way or a Controllable way.

The two extremes are to 'Bury' the feeling of anger or let them ' rage' uncontrollable, neither is healthy for the person doing them or the people in their live.



misty


Thats True...thats so true! I've actually been so angry with someone (well....with my husband actually) that while I was screaming at him a little voice in the back of my mind was saying "This is not right. Thats MEAN. I should stop saying these things". But I couldnt stop. It was horrible.

Its NOT always good to "let it all out" . Its better to think things through & try to be calm. But sometimes thats just impossible to do. When you're really mad & someone is arguing with you, how do you just stop & think things through? I can't. I NEED to explode sometimes.



Charlie Girl

Well Dr John, you make a good shrink.

I am guilty of both extremes. You mean there actually is something in the middle? LOL

I can't wait for your next appointment so you can tell me how I am supposed to deal with anger. Geesh, I didn't know I had such a problem until you pointed it out. I really do tend to react one way or the other.



John

I'm so GLAD I can help you guys [ and anyone else too] While I'm Helping myself !

I think Way TOO MANY couples fall into the habit/trap/cycle of letting their anger escalate [sp] AND then XPLODE ~ Out of Control . . .

The Goal I believe, is to ''EXPRESS what makes you Angry'', BEFORE the FEELING's of Anger taking over . . . Once the Feelings TAKE over, and they quite literally do, then the other person [spouse] SHOULD say, ''I see your very upset now, and I know you want to express it, would it be possible to do it in a less stressful way ? ''

This is one way Mature Adults might 'Defuse the Anger' Before things get out of control . . .

In a way we are teaching our children This Is The Way to handle our Anger . . . Explode.

This will be the pattern they will use in their marriage . . .

[misty]

leigh

Oh boy, have I ever become involved in this thread!!! Misty and Lostmyshoe, I relate so well to what you said have been your experiences and feelings about your anger. And JJ.....I relate to that avoidance thing, too (in some circumstances).

I worry about my kids all the time....the kinds of adults they will be.....the way they will act with their wives and children. A lot has been going on here lately, and I've struggled with it. Some of it I wonder how much I'm to blame. My sister and I just (10 minutes ago) finished a phone conversation about some of my concerns. I've been to therapy before. I've read enough books to write one of my own.....LOL....but SOME things seem to just get such a strong-hold over us.

Anyway, this is a great thread.



John

And to do that Dawn, you need to ''see'' the signs of your anger creeping up on you and Defuse it BEFORE it reaches the Boiling Over Point [or B.O.P. as we like to call it] other wise you'll end up repeating the same negative process over & over again, wondering why NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU !

Sometimes our 'Automatic Thoughts' lead to Negative Emotions . . . we need to Stop and examine these emotions and say '' Is this true'', ''Is this a real fact about . . . . . . . ''.

These are Skills & Tools that we [ME !] need to learn, to get past our destructive ways of THINKING = FEELING.

The way you Think can lead to the way you Feel . . .



lostmyshoe

John, I think I need a neon sign sometimes, LOL. Sometimes my daughter springs things on me that I am not expecting and I blow up. That seems to be a problem area for me also. Today her cousin and girlfriend hopped off of the bus with her and decided to come over without telling me or the other parents in advance. I got pretty hot but at least I didn't explode because there were other people there. I had a talk with the girls about how the responsible thing would have been to let people know in advance what they were planning so no one worries when someone doesn't arrive home on time. It's things like that that really get me angry sometimes. It seems I have to learn to handle it better when things are sprung on me that I am not expecting. Any advice is so much appreciated. Pass me the tools please, John. Dee



john

Dee, from the little I know I'd say . . . These are two area's that concern you and cause you to to feel anger/fear/stress. When things are:

1. Unexpected

2. Unplanned

So you need to THINK about what you FEEL when something Unexpected/Unplanned happens to you . . .

What is a Different way you can think about the situation when it happened OR happens again . . .

What do you think made/makes you angry beside the Action (the unexpection) itself . . .

Dee, This is something that should be explored more fully by a professional therapist to fully understand all the complex issues that are involved in Anger issues.

[misty]

john

something I learned/heared somewhere about ''guilty'' feelings . . . Sometimes we ARE guilty, sometimes we're NOT guilty and sometimes we feel guilty when were not.

Feelings of guilt (I can't believe you brought this up, 'cause I have the same PROBLEM !) for me, are caused (I believe) by my childhood. For most children when bad things happen to them, they Automatically think, ''What did I DO to cause this?'' They then 'carry'' around with them the rest of their life, this underlying feelings of 'unhealthy' guilt. In the past when DW had a ''ANGER ATTACK'', I would go into the ''automatic thinking'' mode of ''Uh oh, what did I do now ~ it's all my fault ~ if I would just be better at . . . . . . . . . ''.
It can be kinda over whelming at times when you see how many 'issues' we have are so Intertwined . . . . . Ack ! [image]

Never forget ~ There is HOPE ! I've come a LONG WAY in just 2 1/2 -(LOL) of therapy and I feel hopeful about myself and how I can handle stressful situations without the 'auto-matic' thought taking over and controlling me ~

Many people have difficulty accepting they have any Problems, let alone ones with the Label >>> ''Mental Disorder'' <<< {I think EVERYONE has some type of 'MentalDisorder' just because of the sin nature of the Human Race, but that's another story- 'Smirk' !}
AND I'm sure you are correct, that we need to Keep working on our prob's . . . They might [but I'm no polymath here] even be a live long struggle/battle. In a way I think that can be a good thing. WHY you ask {and I'm glad you did} would this be a good thing for me/you/us . . . ONE ~it keeps us [me] looking to God for help, TWO~ it keeps us[ME] humble, THREE~ it helps us remember all the other people out there [and in our lives] who need help too.



jj

John, I have always said something very similar.....that if they were to "evaluate" every single human they would find out there is no such thing as "normal". I honestly believe that. I think each of us would end up with some sort of label such a Learning Disability, a phobia, a obsession, etc...

One thing I know is so important is to surround yourself with optimistic and happy friends. My whole family for the most part is upbeat and laughing all the time. Not too long ago I happened to make friends with a gal who is negative about everything and guess what? I started really getting on the negative road and when another friend said, "You are starting to sound like (Lisa - not her real name)" I decided I needed to slowly end my friendship with this person. My optimism obviously was not rubbing of on her and it just isn't a healthy friendship. I feel for her that she is so negative all the time and maybe I should point it out to her before I write her off. Hmmmm....

This is really a very interesting topic.


charlie girl

If you feel that she is open to criticism JJ, you should point it out to her. You can tell her point blank that you can't see much of her because she brings you down, then offer to help her with the things that she is so negative about.

It may only be one thing that you can help her with at first, but if she sees that she can control something in her life, it may be the impetus she needs to start looking at the rest more realistically.

I used to complain about everything and always saw the darkest side of even the brightest star. I thought everyone's lives were so much better than mine and that most people had these lives where only the rare bad thing occurred. Granted, I have seen a lot that a child shouldn't have to see, but it was an eye opener to me to find that every person living had some really rotten things happen in their lives.

I still feel overwhelmed at times by things that I either can't control or can't figure out a good solution for. I've learned to vent to someone who understands me and then leave it behind until I can deal with it. Your friend can too if she really wants to.

The difference was they dwelt on what they could do about it instead of letting it keep them in the pits. They moved on, where I blamed them for my failure. They were responsible in part for my failures but only because I let them get in the way and didn't do anything about them.

I could write a book but it would be very boring. I think you get the picture. Maybe your friend is crying out for help and really does want to know how she can make her life better.

If you offer and she turns you down, you know you tried to help her. If she takes you up on it, you may be able to help her learn that its ok to be happy and in control.

[misty]

losty

Wow, I think maybe we should change the topic title of this thread to The Longest Thread, LOL. It really has turned out to be a thread that is part of a silver lining though. I can relate to so many things everyone has said. I have been that negative person myself. It took more then one friend to finally get through to me and really let me see in the mirror what a negative person I can be. I grew up with negativity but like you said CG, you have to leave blame where it is and move on. JJ, good luck with your friend and I can't ever imagine you being mean. It's understandable to back away from someone that is not healthy for you to be around. CG summed it all up perfectly. You may not be able to be close friends like before but maybe you can help her in some way to realize how she comes across. A good friend of mine helped me out a great deal to see some things about myself I really needed to recognize and to change. She really did make a difference in my life by being open and honest with me. John, I really loved that you wrote about the 3 steps. So very true. It was only in putting my trust and faith in God that I got through some really hard times in my life, times that have humbled me greatly and allowed me to learn lessons that gave me the desire to reach out to others that are in pain or confusion. It does all lead back to Him, every time.



John

Well here's something new . . . This week at work I went to a six week class (I missed the 1st week) & (it lasts an hour) on be 'assertive'. This fits hand in hand with some/many of my ''Social/Personal Function Disorders''. Now I'm sure (?) many of you Don't suffer from this Dilemma but you may know someone that does [your children, your cat, houseplants . . .]. There is a book they are using that I plan on finding hopefully Before the sessions are over.

There is a BIG difference between being Assertive and being Aggressive.
Being assertive is not being a door-mat, not letting ppl take advantage of you, expecting to be treated like a functioning ADULT with your OWN likes/dislikes, opinion's and thoughts. AND learning it's OK to have your OWN opinions and the other person being OK WITH THAT.
Some of the reasons ppl are not assertive can be: being afraid if they disagree they will not be loved, the person will leave them [that's me], the person will ridicule them when they can't defend there reason for not agreeing with them. These are just some of the basic reasons, I'm sure there are doz more.
So far it has been very helpful and Paula [my therapist] thinks it's a great idea for me. Of course just Knowing is different from Doing . . . That's where I have to Analise my ''Auto-Matic Thoughts'' and ask, ''Is this true, is this what the facts are, or is this just an Old Feeling taking over again''.


Today's lesson was ''Assertiveness: Nonverbal Behavior''

We talked about - Passive Nonverbal Behavior, Aggressive Nonverbal Behavior and Assertive Nonverbal Behavior. Also, how to Express Opinions and Tips for sharing your opinions.

One of the more interesting goals I learned when Expressing your Opinion is, Your goal is NOT to get the other person's approval, nor is it to change the persons mind, nor is it to convince them that you are right. { ! } Basiclly it's to just present your point of view clearly.

and of course the Most Important Point is :

> > > EVERYBODY's ENTITLED TO MY OPINION < < <

What this really means is that everyone should have the chance to hear what I think about something, Not that my opinion is the only one worth listing too !



Charlie Girl

Ok John, I think its time to put you on the spot. Can you briefly describe and/or give an example of the different nonverbal behaviors?

I know its asking a lot to ask you to formulate what you learned into words but I really would like to know. Its ok if you can't. A lot of times I will internalize something but not be able to express it to someone else, so if you can't I will understand.



John

Nonverbal Conveyed through:

1. Physical distance and/or contact

2. Posture

3. Movements/gesture

4. Tone of voice and fluency

5. Facial expression

6. Eye contact or lack thereof

7. General appearance


Information conveyed Nonverbally:

1. General emotional state

2. Feelings about/importance of issue

3. Feelings about other person

4. Level of confidence in what you say

5. Expectation about impact of your words

6. Your view of your status relative to the other person (=, <, >)

More to follow >


OK Class, here we go again:

PASSIVE NonVerbal Behavior ~

Lack of eye contact, cast down, turned away.
Hunched posture, trying to disappear.
Few gestures or else nervous gesturing.
Anxious or apologetic expressions.
Quiet voice, questioning tone, sounds uncertain.
Hesitant in making statements, pauses or unfinished sentences.

AGGRESSIVE Nonverbal Behavior~

Posture is large & threatening
Rapid, sharp physical gestures
May invade others physical space
Direct and fixed eye contact
Expression is angry, glaring, tense, may get red in the face
May touch the other in a violent manner
Yelling and shouting or very cold and hostile

ASSERTIVE Nonverbal Behavior~

Upright posture with shoulders back, facing the other person
Movements are relaxed, natural, open
Maintained eye contact with few breaks
Facial expression matches content of message, generally calm and open
Touch is gentle and culturally appropriate
Voice is warm and well modulated
Flow of words is even and conversational

[misty]

Charlie Girl

I have a hard time with body language. There have been times when I was telling someone something that I didn't think they would believe and was so self conscious about it that I changed my natural actions to what seemed more convincing. I propbably convinced them with that that I was making it up.

I had a foster daughter once who would lie before she told the truth even if the truth was better for her. I did learn to look for the visual cues that she wasn't being truthful. The more convincing she was, the more likely she was lying but once I figured it out and could tell, she learned to be more honest.

I wonder how many people with aspergers have been accused of lying because they can't look you in the eye and naturally speak in a flat, monotone type voice.

Can you tell that I don't do very well when it comes to reading body language?



John

OK class, here's somemore . . .

EXPRESSING OPINIONS:

1. Passive Style ~ avoid giving opinions on both major and minor issues, wait for others to give their opinions first, agree with others.

2. Aggressive style ~ give opinions freely, but put down other points of view, try to intimidate other es into agreement.

3. ASSERTIVE Style ~ Willing to express opinions, feel no need to have others agree or to change their minds, open to consider information presented by others and may change opinion but do not need to go along with the crowd.


TIPS for SHARING YOUR OPINIONS:

1. Try to be relaxed and act confident when giving your opinion; your opinion matters !

2. Rehearse what you want to say, or write it down first.

3. Use ''I'' statements to own your opinion:
''I think''
''It seems to me . . . ''
''The way that I see it is...''
''My belief is...''
''I feel...''

4. Don't apologize for your opinion.

5. Show recognition that others might see things differently and you are open to their views.

6. You don't necessarily have to defend or justify your opinion, but you may choose to.

7. You can agree to disagree.


Hope you find this info helpfull.


OK Class . . . .

GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK

Why is Negative Feedback Important ?

1 Vital to maintaining healthy relationships
2 If you dont let others know that you dont like something, it can only damage the relationship
3 Friends depend on our honesty to know how they are perceived by others

It's UNcomfortable to give Negative Feedback so We:

1 Avoid it -
Never tell others what we really think-this is a recipe for Disaster in Relationships

2 Give it Aggressively-
Bottle it up until it comes out in an Aggressive manner
Discomfort with giving feedback comes out seeming aggressive

3 Are vague-
Talk in generalities and may not be specific or clear

STAY TUNED for ''Skill for Giving CONSTRUCTIVE Feedback '' !

[misty]

misty

Well, Thankfully I have NO PROBLEM giving negative feedback (just ask Barb & JJ if you don't believe me). I have 2 questions though.

1. What do you do when others don't receive the negative feedback well?

2. how do you teach yourself to accept negative feedback from others?


john

Dawn, those are Important Questions . . . For a Limited Time ONLY, of just $19.95, YOU can find out the answers to these and at least two other questions you didn't even know YOU HAD !

Seriously Folks, I will find out the answer to these questions for yoU ! (ASAP)


Skills for Giving Constructive Feedback ~

FOCUS on the Behavior, NOT the person

* You should be able to identify a specific BEHAVIOR that can
be changed for improvement.

* Don't label

* Choose a good time - for you
and the other person
When you can be calm
When you can talk one-on-one
Your not rushed
When the other person is not distracted or overwhelmed

* Balance ratio of positives and negatives
*Make sure that you are not just expressing what you don't
like, but also expressing what you do like

* Think out what you want to say ahead of time

*Sandwich or Frame the issue
Start out with something Positive, or put the Negative
between two Positives

*Be specific
If feedback is vague or general, they will not know what
to do to improve

* Give Information, not advice
Don't tell the other person what to do, just give the facts.

Later > Barriers to Saying No



leigh'

Whoa, John! I haven't been reading here much lately, but I bookmarked this thread a long while back and decided to catch up this morning. All of the little behavior lists you put up really hit home for me. Some of it's hard to read because I'm going, "Yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's me, too." Uhhhgg. I've been dealing with some personal issues lately (some of it is the stuff you've been posting.)

Yesterday was a particularly difficult day (morning). The kids were getting on my nerves with their bickering and backtalking. My husband was irritating me by not appearing to be interested in having a conversation with me about a topic I wanted to discuss, and I didn't hold back my irritation with any of them. In fact I was downright mean and almost self-righteous.

So we went to church, and the ENTIRE sermon was on behaving in a negative, "self-righteous" way and how it ruins relationships.....and shows no respect for God. I was squirming in my seat because I knew what my husband was thinking, and I felt terrible. At the same time, I honestly said a prayer of thanks for the little spiritual "tap on the shoulder."

Anyway, I'm going to print out those lists of yours. Thanks for all you've done to help us here.

[misty]

jj

While John is looking for his handouts (yes, we are a patient group, John [image] ) I thought this would be a good time to bring up "button pushing". I meant to mention it a while back in this thread but the posts were so interesting I forgot about it. And sorry, this is a bit long so I hope you all can get through it. LOL

O.K. You ready for this!! People don't push our buttons. We let people push our buttons and in some cases we leave them no choice. Yup, you heard me. [image]

Many years ago during a marital squabble I asked my (now) X why he got so angry. He told me I just pushed his buttons. I pondered this a while and after some thought I realized how often we had had this same argument before, we said almost the exact same things in previous fights and rehashed the same things over and over again so I knew there was something to what he said. So I took it to heart and started to pay attention to what I was saying. Don't get me wrong...at first I could never do this in the heat of a battle but you know how after a fight you go over in your mind what each person said, what you wish you had said, etc. Well, I could see a pattern of what he said to tick me off and what I said to him to tick him off.

After many failed attempts to change the way a "discussion" was going I finally said something I normally would not say. It changed the whole outcome of the "discussion".

Let me give you a little example of one of our famous senerios:
Him: So whats for supper? (I immediately went on the defensive thinking he expected me to cook)
Me: What? You think I'm your maid? (Now my words just put him on the defensive)
Him: No, but I've had a rough week. I just want to sit here and relax.
Me: Well I'm not cooking! I had a rough week too. (I'm getting mad)

What happened when I just changed a few words.
Him: So whats for supper?
Me: I don't know. You want to go look to see what we have.(I'm putting the choice in his court)
Him: I just want to sit here and relax. I've had a rough week. (He's telling the truth)
Me: I know you've had a rough week. So have I. Supper can wait. Just sit and relax.(Again, I'm putting it in his court as what he can do. Usually he grudgingly got up and came in the kitchen with me if he was hungry enough)

So what I'm saying is if you think someone is pushing your buttons look to see how you are allowing those buttons to be pushed. Maybe just rephrasing something could bring a different outcome. For example if your child lying to you “pushes your buttons” don't give them the chance to lie. If you know the garbage hasn't been taken out don't ask, “Did you take out the garbage?”. That gives the child the opportunity to lie. Instead say, “ I see you didn't take out the garbage. Please go do that now!”.

O.K. I'm done. Hopefully, maybe this will help some of you. I did try to put these things to play in my marriage and it did help the fights not get so “hot” but unfortunately the marriage still fizzled.



misty

Acyually, I was thinking while I read your post, JJ....That if It were me I MY hubby & I changed the discussion & said "I don't know. You want to go look to see what we have?" His reply would probably be not as nice as what you described.

I've tried changing the outcome of discussions, like you suggest & have come to the conclusion that sometimes we LIKE to argue. That at times (not always, mind you) no matter how we change around what we say, its going to turn in to an argument simply because we WANT to argue!

Now, your suggestions for kids are good ones & that's a whole different story. The relationship between parent & child is on a different level than that between spouses. While I sometimes enjoy a good fight with my husband & come away feeling cleansed, I never enjoy arguing with my child.




jj

Misty, I don't think this would work if you like to fight, as you say. [image]
I personally hate to fight. I never feel better and in most cases I feel worse partly because I said some things I shouldn't have and things were said to me that were hurtful, because I wish I said some things I didn't, and I can't stand someone being mad at me but most of all I hate being angry, period. If you feel cleansed after a fight then I guess that is a good thing so fight away!!!! ROTFLMBO

I can't help but wonder if, when someone is always itching for a fight, there a lot more going on then the "topic" at hand. Hmmm... I know this is so true with my sister. She can't hardly say anything to me or me to her because of all the past hurtful things we have said to each other, that we aren't immediately on the defensive.

BTW: My example was just an example and probably pretty lame but you know your spouse and if you don't want to argue then really thinking about what triggers your spouse to "push your buttons" should be something you should attempt to change.

Anyway, I'm just telling what worked for me to prevent those fights that got REALLY nasty and hurtful. Obviously it won't work for everybody.

Now a debate (not getting angry and stating what you passionately believe) is a whole different story.

[misty]

misty

Just to clarify, We are not always itching for a fight. BUT, there are times when having a passionate argument just clears the air & leaves us both feeling better afterwards. Not to mention, its better than keeping things bottled up inside.

I think you are correct that if someone ALWAYS wants to argue, then there is probably an underlying issue.



jj

I agree with you 100%. Keeping things bottled up is not good. Can I be the devils advocate??? [image] What buttons were pushed that made either one of you feel the air needed clearing? These are the buttons I'm talking about that we "allow" to happen.

O.K. I'm done be onery. I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you Misty. You just happened to be the one with a good response.



misty

Oh...sure..make me THINK

Lets see....Buttons...I like to push the " its a MANS job" button & when he's angry at me I like to LAUGH...just sit there & laugh...that is his BIGGEST button!

I only do it when I'm already angry at him & would like to just argue & get it done with. See, he's the type that would rather walk away & cool down so he can talk calmly, but if I'm mad & theres no one to fight with, I dont cool down, I sit & get angrier & angrier. So I'd rather just fight & be done with it.