Major sibling issues. I'm going nuts here!

[misty]

leigh............. Thread Started on Sept 19, 2006, 2:41pm

How many of you deal with major sibling arguments, and what do you do about it? My two boys are ages 5 (nearly six) and 10 1/2. They irritate each other all the time. They mock each other all the time (repeating what the other one says in a very irritating voice). They push each other sometimes. The younger one screams constantly now. Just this morning, my older one was looking for something on the sofa, and he moved the edge of a big blanket his younger brother had draped over him. The edge! My younger son screamed "HEY!!!!!!!" like someone was stealing his bike. This kind of reaction is frequent. My older one screams, too, but not as much. He does seem to get a rise out of irritating his brother, though, and it just drives me crazy. They both backtalk me frequently and have their own unique "attitudes." Then other times they're angels, often kissing me and telling me how much they love me, apologizing for things they did wrong, hugging and encouraging each other.

We put them in time out, take away priviledges......and my husband even started deducting money from their allowance (they don't get a lot of money anyway). I'm thinking of going back to a "chip system" for earning things, but last time I did that it wore it's novelty off in no time.

I have so many things to talk about here regarding both boys, but I'll start with this one. I really thought the close to five year age gap would be so easy. They just won't stop arguing, and it's totally wearing me down.

What are things like with those of you with more than one?

[misty]

misty

I only have one kid, but I had to reply because it sounded so much like my sister & I growing up! We are 4 years apart & we bickered, fought & yelled at each other CONSTANTLY (except when we were conspiring together against our parents..LOL). We are adults now & best friends. Its hard to believe we are the same two people that used to scream at each other for touching our stuff, looking at each other, even for breathing too loud! The more I write, the more I'm thinking this must not be an ADHD matter at all. Neither of us was ADHD but we were just horrible to each other. Anyway, I have no real advice. Nothing my parents did helped, we just matured & evolved into best friends. At least thats something you can look forward to!

sorry I wasn't much help.


jj

I actually don't think it is an ADHD thing either. My older sister and I fought all the time. I got along with my little sis but I loved to irritate my little brother. I really don't know why except maybe I was bored and back then I wanted to be the center of attention.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help because my step-sons got along pretty well but maybe because they a little over 2 years apart. Don't get me wrong, they had regular spats but they would be done and over with in a matter of minutes. The only time Gary got irritated with Joey was when Gary started dating. Joey wasn't into the girl thing so was always "invading" Gary's space. Joey was the pest and would annoy Gary until he got mad. But that seemed like it passed because Joey was soon into girls too.

I hope someone else comes and gives you advise. I know my niece and nephew used to do nothing but fight all the time so they basically staked out certain spaces in the house and rarely do either one invade that space.

I sure hope someone else comes along and gives you advise. The only thing I can think of is seperate them for periods of time and maybe they will appreciate the time they have together???
Sorry...pretty lame idea.



Leigh

Not that I'm rejoicing in what you and your sister went through, but it IS nice to know that despite all of that you two are so close. And truthfully, my sister and I argued a lot, too, and are close as can be now.

[image]

I think the thing is I just really mourn the picture I had in my head, you know.....the one where they'd be sweet and loving and respectful all the time. LOL! My own irritation level is extremely high. I'm as focused as a gnat at times (nothing new since childhood) and I guess I'm also going through something (maybe that has to do with turning 40.... [image] ).I just hear so much screaming from them, witness their intense irritation with one another and frequent desire to make the other mad......and the five year old has now taken to hitting and even sometimes kicking his older brother in retaliation. They do get punished, but I must be doing it all wrong. They aren't this way with friends, though, thankfully.

My 10 year old just walked in the door and said, "I have to go to the bathroom." As he was walking to the bathroom the five year old ran in front of him and said, "I have to go!" The older one started screaming at him until I told him to go use a different bathroom. I'm shocked that the older one didn't start banging on the bathroom door to show his brother just how mad he was, but then again.....he gave me pure he## today about getting homework done before a friend could come over, so I imagine he feels guilty. He knows a punishment for that is looming, although he doesn't know what it is going to happen.....just that it will happen tonight. (an hour early to bed, BTW).

<<<<Sigh>>>>>.............I'm just stressed out by a lot, I suppose. I would love to have just ONE DAY where there was no arguing before getting on the bus for school, no homework battles with the older one, no breaking the sound barrier in the house, and kids who will simply just do as their told without WANTING to do the opposite sometimes. That's not too much to ask, is it? LOL!

BTW.........yesterday, my five year old asked if we could move his hamster to a room upstairs away from everyone. I asked him why, and he said, "Because she shoudn't hear all this yelling." [image]




Thanks in advance for any more suggestions.

[misty]

leigh

Oops! Somehow I missed your reply, JJ. Thanks. Separating them............I do actually do that when I can, but it's hard.....especially when the older one has a friend over (happens a few times a week) and the younger one doesn't have anyone here. He flat-out insists on being with his brother and the friend and will NOT let up. Then he drives them crazy. The older one retaliates. The scream-fest begins, the relentless tattle-telling. The friends go home and tell their parents that my two argue non-stop and the moms talk to me later to let me know they heard my two fight all the time.


Anyway.....thanks for your support. I'll be sending out invitations to the pity party in a few days.
[image]


misty

Just so you know, Leigh,my only child gives me just as big a hasssle over homework, getting ready to go out, not listening, etc. That phrase you used:
" kids who will simply just do as their told without WANTING to do the opposite sometimes"
really hit home to me. Thats how my daughter seems sometimes. ARGH! It drives me apesh*t!


Charlie Girl

My brother and I fought all the time. He was 3 years older than I and we were jealous of each other. He thought I got spoiled, which I probably did, and I thought it wasn't fair that he could do so many things I wanted to do but was always too young.

We did have many times when we got along well simply because we didn't have anyone else to play with. We still fought probably every day, and I mean hitting, kicking, punching.

By the time we were in our mid teens, we didn't fight as much. I had my friends and he had his. Sometimes we even all hung out together.

Is there something you can do to make each boy feel special? Do you have one on one time with each one alone on a regular basis? That would have made all the difference when I was growing up. Maybe that is what your boys need also.



misty

Hmmmm......I have to say that my sister & I had LOTS of one-on-one times with our parents. My dad would do something with me while my mom did something different with Faith & then vice-versa the next time. We (at least I , I cant speak for Faith) always felt special to both of my parents. You know what though? we STILL constantly fought!

I remember our yearly trips from PA to Illinois in the car & fighting over her FINGER being on "my side" of the seat. OMG, like her finger was really hurting me!

We would argue at dinner, fight over who got the shower first, hit each other for "Looking at" each other the wrong way, kick each other under the table, fight over who got to pet the dog...the list goes on & on & on & on........

[misty]

lostmyshoe

Leigh, I've only got one, but I feel for ya. I have two sisters and I used to beat on my sister closest in age pretty good when we were kids. She would tease me and tease me about silly stuff until I got really mad. I also have a sister that is 6 years younger who we used to run and hide from and she'd cry(I feel bad about it now when I think of it). My Mother used to get so frustrated with us sometimes. She used to separate us and let us feel alittle isolation so we appreciated each other's company. Not to mention a few smacks here and there.

I've probably told the story before about the wiffle bat, but it's pretty funny and I wanted to share it again. Once when my sister was teasing me I was getting ready to smack her and she came upon a wiffle bat in the yard. I never thought she'd do it, but she pummeled me good. I think my Mom was actually laughing and told me I got what I deserved. There wasn't really too much fighting after that accept verbal arguments. I think that kind of marked the time between child and teenager.

I think no matter how old you are, siblings sometimes disagree. I get in arguments now and then with my sisters, but we always do make up. I know it's got to be tough sometimes with more then one, but it does get better. Somehow my Mom managed with 3 and we all came out okay. Hang in there Leigh. Venting here does help too. Dee


jj

Actually, I do think the one on one time is a good idea, Charliegirl. It may not have worked for your family, Misty, but it could be they just want more undivided attention. It certainly can't hurt to give it a try unless of course Leigh is already doing that.


misty

I never meant it was a bad idea to have one on one time. Its ALWAYS a good idea to spend time with your kids & every kid needs that special time with Mom & Dad. I think sibling rivalry is just a part of growing up. I think that correcting them for it & separating them when it gets out of hand is a good thing. Even though we fought, my parents managed to instill in us a love for each other & the sense of right & wrong so that we were able to get through the rivalry & be friends as adults. I never meant to start an argument here; just adding my 2 cents that attention must not be the ONLY reason for siblings to fight like cats & dogs, since we had plenty & still fought.


leigh

Misty, thanks. Your description of your fights with your sister sounds a lot like my boys.

Regarding one on one time (was it Charlie Girl who asked about it?).........I have a "Date Night" every now and then with my older son. We go out for dinner together and then one other place of his choice. We've been doing this for years now. Maybe I should do it more frequently, though. He and I also have a lot o "deep conversations." He always comes to me to talk about serious issues and/or thoughts and questions. I used to be able to get him to play games with me or let me read to him, but he has totally lost interest in that and now wants to spend every waking moment on his skateboard with his friends. As he puts it, "Skateboarding is my life." May I just add that he's not joking about that. Oh dear. Anyway, one on one time with my younger child is usually out for meals together, games (Uno....he loves that), reading. Well..........this all makes me feel I should figure out how to spend even MORE one-on-one time with each of them.

Lostmyshoe (Dee), Thanks SO much! Your wiffle bat story made me laugh really hard. I got a visual of my YOUNGER son going after his older brother.
Note to self: Do not buy a wiffle bat.



Well I do want to thank each of you for letting me know how "normal" this apparently seems to be and that it may very well come to an end. I think my own issues get in the way much of the time. I'm not patient. I can get very irritable, and I have a very low tolerance for noise. I also suppose because of what was lacking in my own childhood, I spent years obsessing over a picture in my head of what I thought family should be and what being a mom should be like and what my kids would be like. Poor role-modeling during my early years left me obsessed with perfect TV families. Craziness. I mean.............clearly, my kids are not ever going to be Greg or Peter Brady......no matter HOW many of those shows I make them watch. [image]


Well..........I have a lot I'd like to talk to you guys about in regards to each of my boys (things that have nothing to do with sibling rivalry). I'll get to that when I can. Meanwhile, thanks for adding your thoughts.



Charlie Girl

If they were closer to the same age and size, I would suggest just sticking them in the same room, closing the door and telling them they have to stay there until they settle it.

I know someone who said that she faught with her sister so much that her father finally stood them facing each other, tied them together with a rope and told them they would either live like that or learn to get along so he could untie them. [image] According to her, it worked. I wouldn't suggest it, but now that she is an adult, its funny.

[misty]

misty

That reminds me.....I had forgotten.....I know someone with 5 kids each a year to 2 years apart. When they get to fighting too much they take the kids down in the basement. They have mats on the floor & the offending children get boxing gloves & they box out their differences. I'm not sure what the rules are but they do have rules & the parents oversee the match. Hmmmm.......they say it really works.


jj

Misty, that is a pretty good idea too. I actually know some parents who make their kids go outside if they get too noisy or rowdy. Wouldn't work if it was really cold outside but not a bad idea....but then you may have neighbors complaining.


unicorn-tiff'smom

I am so late in joining into this thread. Sorry for that. I too only have one child, so I can't relate there. But I have a sister that is 3 years younger and yes, we did fight a lot. My mother used to seperate us for time outs and we'd switch chairs that she originally put us on, she'd catch us talking and giggling while we were in trouble. So then to us that was great fun having the time outs.

We do get along now. She has 3 children and has discovered the joy of sibling rivalry.

I hope things get better. One day they will be close friends. We are always here to hear venting.



bugsmom

Oh Leigh...I feel for you. I also have an only child and can't speak to you on having two like you...but my sister has two boys and I swear that what you've discribed is a carbon copy of what she went through. Her two boys were so awful to each other that at one point I couldn't even stand to be around them. I love those boys to death, but a few years ago I didn't even want to be in the same room with them! They would pick on each other, make fun of each other, yell, tease, ect... I even cancelled a weekend away with their family because I just couldn't stand listening to it! My poor sister...God Bless her, I don't know how she made it through. But, the good news is that now, at ages 13 and 16 they are not nearly as bad as they used to be. They used to be be so bad that they couldn't even be in the same room with each other without world war III breaking out...but now that their older and have matured, they actually have more fun together. I think your boys will grow out of this rough patch and come through just fine. I know that doesn't help you now when your in the middle of it, but I've seen it happen with my lovely nephews. When I read your post I felt like I was talking to my sister 3 years ago, I could just picture what your going through. If it helps any, my sister used to pour a glass of wine the minute the kids came home from school. HA HA! It's amazing she didn't develop a drinking problems in those years. Ha Ha. Hang in there, I know how hard it can be.



leigh

Thanks again, everyone. I'm feeling quite encouraged by your posts. It's really weird to me that they're like this at nearly five years apart, but I suppose it's not that unusual.

Funny thng.......if ANY other child does ANYTHING to upset one of the boys, the other one will go to bat for his brother 100%. A month or so ago, my kids were at McDonalds, and some child was really mean to my five year old in the play area (hit him). I didn't see this take place, but what I DID see and hear was my ten year old with his hands around the "bully's" shoulders, calmly walking behind him and coaxing him in the direction of my five year old while saying, "Why did you hit him? You say you're sorry to my brother. Did you hear me? You say you're sorry to my brother."

My five year old said to me just yesterday, "Mom, if any kid is mean to Aaron on the school bus, I'm going to make them be nice. I can tell them they better leave him alone." LOL!

LOL!!!! This from two kids who will engage in a verbal banter of one-upmanship for as long as it takes to "win" the arguement.


Now..........off to get a glass of wine......and some rope. [image] (Two very funny.....and possibly helpful suggestions). Thanks for the advice and laughs, everyone. I needed that! My younger son gave me such a hard time this morning (backtalking and saying mean things to ME). I sure needed the laugh here.

[misty]

katiekat

Leigh, I just went back and read this thread from the start and we have alot in common besides the memory thing. I also have 2 boys. My oldest is 10 1/2 and youngest will be 6 next week. They do not get along at all. I also thought that with a 5 yr. difference there wouldn't be alot of problems. Oh how wrong I was. They are just 2 extremely different personalities and they clash like crazy. I'm sorry I have no helpful suggestions because nothing works with these 2. Just wanted to let you know I think you're living my same life...and I feel your pain LOL.


leigh

Thanks, Katiekat. We do seem to have to some things in common. Two boys almost the exact same age. My youngest will be six on Oct. 30. My ten year old will be 11 in Feb.



I've got so much to talk about in regards to each of my boys. Part of me just doesn't want to bring it up because it's exhausting. I will, though, soon. They're both giving me a lot of cause for concern (and I WISH it was just the sibling thing, but it's not).



katiekat

Wow Leigh they are the same age down to the months-my oldest will be 11 Feb. 1st. I know what you mean about it being exhausting. I feel completely drained by the end of each day. My older son was always so easy. Never a behavior problem at school and everything comes so easy to him. He gets straight As no problem and his teachers always have good things to say. (although he has a bit of an attitude with me). Now with Sean its so different and I dont know how to handle it. I honestly cant blame the older one for getting so annoyed with him. I feel like I exert so much energy on Sean I have no patience for anything else. Well whenever you feel up to discussing your concerns just know that everyone here understands and will do whatever they can to help.



leigh


Boy, don't I know that. I know most of these guys from the other ADHD site and finally made my way over here. Funny, but I got to where I only post "off topc" stuff on that site and gave up the posts about my kids (LOL). I think that's just because there are simply too many people there to keep up with. HERE, though, it's a different story. I've read a lot and do really want to start opening up a bit more about issues with my kids.

My older son has had issue after issue, and things have always been harder with him. Fortunately, he has a huge heart and is quick to apologize (both the boys are like that). There have been a lot of tears over the years, though. My younger one is quite different. He has always been much easier in every regard, but there are some behaviors at home (mostly his temper) that are now worrying me quite a lot. Having attention problems myself doesn't make this any easier. I do promise to talk about all this later.

Ack! It's 7pm. I have a ton to do! What am I doing on the computer right now?


notellin

I bought two jars and 20 marbles. I put 10 marbles in each. I wrote their names on the jars and left them on the dining room table in plain sight. I had them pick a reward. I told them that if they had 1 marble left at the end of the week they could have the reward. Every time they spoke in an unkind voice (to each other or anyone) they lost a marble. They each lost 5 marbles rapidly, and then started working hard for their rewards. Each morning I would remind them that we are speaking in kind voices. If I heard boderline voices, I picked up a marble jar and spun the marbles around (it was loud) which immediately resulted in kind voices. I did this for one week, and it really reduced the problem.

[misty]

katiekat


Leigh, I know EXACTLY what you are going through. My two boys are the same ages as yours and it is the same way here.
I wish I had an answer for you because that would mean my house would be alot quieter. I think the age difference is a big problem. My kids have nothing in common. The younger one irritates the older one,and the older one bosses the younger one around. Sorry I can't help you solve your problem but I can commiserate with you.


leigh

Thanks again, guys. I only just now checked back in here after a long time without reading here.

Notellin, you mentioned the marble thing. We've done soooo many things like that over the years. I'll tell you of my experiences.

I'll tell all of you something funny. There's a parenting class that about 4 of my friends and their husbands all joined for a month. It's taught by a very well known (locally) ADHD/parenting "expert" doctor of psychology. She's HUGELY popular. Anyway, what's funny is that so many of the parents who went to this workshop are all parents of my older son's best friends. LOL!!!!

So she insists the "Token Economy" works wonders. It's basically where the kids earn a certain number of tokens (poker chips) for doing certain things well (you pick the behavior you want to change first, maybe three or four to start with for a month). They earn their tokens and then have to spend their tokens on things like "watching TV," "dinner out," "a fun afternoon somewhere," "pick your favorite dinner to be made at home/dessert, too".......the list goes on. You can also give them bonus tokens for catching the kids behaving really well. Oh! And you do NOT take tokens away. Once they are earned, they're theirs.

Alright, so the system (like ALL the other ones we've tried) worked AMAZINGLY well the first two weeks. Soon after, though, the kids just didn't seem to care so much. The bad part came when my kids stopped earning so many tokens (I was giving them out pretty much by the hour instead of all at the end of the day), they just started FLIPPING OUT that they were not getting what they felt they deserved, so the behavior problems just came back. I know I'm not as consistent as I should be, and maybe I'm doing something wrong. I just frequently feel as if I have two completely spoiled rotten brats who want and want and want......and expect it.......and are perfectly willing to tantrum their way through it all until they finally give up and just walk away saying, "I hate you." They can be so sweet and thankful at times.......hugging me, thanking me and apologizing for what they said or did....... but, as a general rule, their behavior issues just put me in such a bad mood and leave me frustrated and blaming myself for whatever this is.



Charlie Girl

Everyone I have ever talked to about any form of behavior modification has told me the behavior always gets worse before it gets better.

If you stay consistent and stick to your guns as far as not allowing them to have something they should have earned and didn't, even if they don't care at the moment, they will reach a point when they realize there is no choice. The key is that you can't give in or they will know they can break you down!

I hope this helps.

[misty]

puzzled

leigh

i have kind of the same problem with my boys and they are 3 years apart. The younger one has ADHD inattentive with anger and agressive issues thrown in just for fun.

The older one is a TALKER big time...he loves to hear himself speak especially if there is someone in the room..he can be on the playstation for a long time in his room alone and be silent, but the minute someone is around, he chatters nonstop. Also if the younger one is playing, the older one loves to comment endlessly on his technique, speed, ability, the cat walking through the room, you name it, he will verbalize it !

This drives the ADHDer to screaming frustration on a daily basis especially later in the day when the med is no longer working so well in his system.

I have taken to keeping them seperate to save my sanity. I will let them begin together, but once the screamfest begins, I seperate. Fortunatly they have come to physical blows only once. The older one is almost 3 times the younger ones weight/size!!

My other issue was my 2 girls...they were over 6 years apart and like you I thought that sibling rivalry and bickering would be a non issue. WRONG!!! The ADHDer in that pair is the older one. So naturally, according to her we loved the younger one more, bought her more, took her more places, etc. Never mind that we basically did everything as a family, somehow that all got twisted in the older daughter's mind. We did not recognise that the older girl had ADHD and she wasn't dx til adulthood, so issues such as the younger one having an easier time making and keeping friends, getting better grades with less effort, and not being in trouble at school and home as much somehow became our fault (and the younger girl's) fault too.

Today the girls are both adults, and they have an uneasy truce of sorts....they don't fight a lot, but they definately still disagree on many things and the oldest is still very jealous of the younger one and her life as they have taken very different paths so far.

My ex sister in law says that her parents used to make her and her sibs sit on a bench and hug each other until they were over their fighting, and they would get to giggling and get over it...a kind of variation on the rope idea??? I haven't tried it, but the threat of it has stopped the boys in their tracks more than once....


puzzled

I had to come back and post on this thread again, because somewhere on this board...and I am not sure where...at about the same time as when I posted this...Charlie girl described how it feels to an ADHD mind when someone chatters nonstop. I had my 13 year old son (the non ADHDer) read it and do the ADHD simulator thing, and since then, they have not fought at all!!!

Sometimes I hear Chase say to Jake, "You need to be quiet, Jake." AND JAKE LISTENS!!!

I know when I had Jake read Charlie Girl's description, he said all somber and serious..."Ok, I will try harder, I didn't know" I think hearing it from an adult made the difference.


Charlie Girl
I found it but it took some digging. Its in our vent board in a thread called Sibling Issues. I'll paste it here just to show what a great memory you have. I had forgotten I had used that anology but you had it right on.

I can identify with your little guy as far as his brother chattering at him. We have so much going on inside our heads all the time that someone who is constantly talking and teasing puts us in overload very easily.

Its like going from having a swarm of bees living in their hives peacefully nearby to having them suddenly get agitated and swarm around and inside your head with the constant buzzing and moving. You can't block it out and you can't confine it to one area. It takes over your entire mind until you think you are going to go insane if it doesn't stop.




puzzled

I knew that was the analogy...and it worked like a charm...Jake still is an annoying big brother at times, but he has started listening and empathising a bit more...so... THANK YOU!!!! [image]

[misty]

Charlie Girl

You're welcome. I am just thrilled that it helped his brother understand.

When you don't have ADHD, it just looks to others like you are so self centered and touchy that you think the world should revolve around you. Really all we are hoping for is that the world will spin a little more slowly so we can just keep our sanity and fit in.


puzzled

When we have talked about it since (I try to touch on it every few days when Jake and I are alone) he has said, "I just figured he was overreacting, and too touchy, I dodn't realize he couldn't help it..."

I have been telling Jake how much he is helping Chase to have a nice safe non stressful place here at home by listening to him when he gets overwhelmed. I think it helps Jake to see that I notice his efforts.




Charlie Girl

I'm sure it helps.

A non ADHD sibling has so much responsibility dumped on them and often they don't realize how much we parents appreciate it. Actually, too much of the time we do tend to take them for granted, not realizing how much they are sacrificing.

I think its wonderful that you let him know you appreciate him.

If you think it will help you can tell him that someday his brother will realize how much he is doing to help him and he will appreciate it more than either of them can imagine at this point.

Tell him for me that I think he is a really wonderful big brother for trying so hard to make his brother's life more pleasant. I know its hard.


puzzled

I had him read your post, and he got that "Aww shucks" proud grin on his face and said..."Okay..." when I again told him that I really do appreciate his effort and understanding.

I think it really helps him to see another adult (besides me) explain it to him...that way it is not just me protecting my "baby".

All I know is that it has been lots more peaceful around here these last couple weeks...